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Tuesday, July 05, 2005

 

Rabbi Feldman on Rabbi Slifkin..what can we learn

For those who haven't heard, R' Aaron Feldman Shlit"a, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisroel in Baltimore, MD has written an article concerning the controversy over the books of Rabbi Slifkin. The article can be found here.

Having a little bit of time to study this letter and having a chance to read the grossly unfair responses to it on some other blogs, it's about time to set the record straight.

First of all, this letter above all was a VERY POSITIVE THING. In my opinion, part of the reason why the controversy has become so big is that there was a lack of clear communication on the part of the gedolim. Most of what we had seen up until this point was vague. This is characteristic of gedolim historically, who generally write things very b'kitzur. Likely, they did not expect Rabbi Slifkin to respond in the way he did. However, now that the his site and the blogs have made this such a huge deal and speculation about their views has abounded, they felt the need to be more clear. I expect and hope that this will be the first of many such articles as I believe there are many yirei shomayim who are just unsure as to what to believe and how to evaluate the validity of these sorts of ideas.

From reading the blogs it would seem to anyone that this is a battle between the Slifkin camp who believe in a synthesis between Torah and science and the gedolim camp who believe we must shut our eyes to scientific evidence and blindly subscribe to a completely literal reading of the chumash. Rabbi Feldman has now DEBUNKED THAT MISCONCEPTION. He mentioned three views on the issue which he deemed valid (Tiferes Yisrael, Bal Haleshem, and R' Schwab), none of which were along the lines of "Hashem made an old-looking world". I have it on good authority that R' Elyashiv endorsed all three of these as valid approaches (there is a letter to that effect I am trying to procure).

R' Feldman has specific problems with the approach Rabbi Slifkin uses based on Rabbi Kaplan (6 days in machshavah) as well as with Rabbi Slifkin's reading of Rav Dessler. Now we must state that Now the above does not make R' Slifkin's answer incorrect. It just makes it poor scholarship. He is saying svaros without good raayos. If someone wants to write a book espousing highly unconventional approaces to hashkafah, it needs to be resting on very solid ground. It is the opinion of the gedolei yisroel that this does not. And who better to make such a judgement?

Now let's be honest. How many people out there were really tied specifically to R' Slifkin's ideas? Very few I'm sure. Everyone was upset about the possibility of banning any approach which was not completely literal. This turns out not to be a problem. I would like to determine if R' Shapiro and R' Shternbuch would agree with R' Feldman on this. Even if they would not, R' Elyashiv would, and that I think should be sufficient. So, with a few paragraphs, R' Feldman has taken this issue from a huge crisis and turned it into a much smaller issue, limited to one specific set of ideas which few people knew about anyway.

Of course, we must ask, do we ban books on account of poor scholarship? Perhaps we do. If the idea being espoused is one which could have a deep impact on people's hashkafah, then the leaders of K'lal Yisroel would not want it being read unless it were true. In addition, and while not stated in the article, any yarei shomayim who read these books has had an uneasy feeling at points about how cavalier he is with Chazal and how quickly he seems to accept certain scientific beliefs. I believe that it was the opinion of the gedolim that, while not kefirah, the books a) espouse unconventional ideas without sufficient proofs b) are written with too glib an attitude, and c) may be detrimental to the emunah of those newcomers to Judaism who are most in need of a firm foundation. i.e. the first thing you tell a prospective baal t'shuvah is not "hey, the Sages may have believed in Unicorns." That is not to say that we cannot seriously deal with these questions, but that we start with the basics and later deal with the kashyos.

The last point above can certainly be argued. Many things about this ban can be argued. But the main idea is that a Rabbi came out with some specific ideas which the greatest scholars of today deemed inauthentic...not all that big of a deal.

I still have some open questions. The end of the article seems to argue for the existence of a concept of psak hashkafah beyond simply what we need to determine if someone is a kofer and therefore pasul aidus. I have several arguments against this, but need to research more and try and get clarification from R' Feldman before I go into it. Also, if the books weren't really kefirah (which seems to be what the article is saying), then why did the letter the gedolim signed say it was? Finally, why wasn't R' Slifkin called in? Couln't this have been done in a better way? Perhaps there is more to the story than we have seen...remember only one side has a web site.

I imagine that these questions and others will be answered as more information comes out. And I believe that the more we get the opportunity to see into the minds of great people, the more we will come to realize that they are not, in fact, ignorant or naive, but rather will be better able to appreciate their greatness.

Comments:
More completely bogus analysis from Lokshenbrains. Positive?! Did you actually read the letter?! Did you even read the bits about Chazal and Science?
 
> I imagine that these questions and others will be answered as more information comes out. And I believe that the more we get the opportunity to see into the minds of great people, the more we will come to realize that they are not, in fact, ignorant or naive, but rather will be better able to appreciate their greatness.

Haha. You have a great imagination. Must be all that Lokshen. Just the opposite has been happening for the past 6 months, you dummy, and it isn't likely to change anytime soon. The more information that comes out, the more we see how these people have absolutely no clue. They don't even agree with each other, never mind common sense.
 
> Contrary to what some have said, the greatest talmid of R' Dessler alive today is not R' Carmell, but rather R' Shapiro.

Really? Based on what facts do you make this statement? Rav Carmell was significantly older than Rav Shapiro (about 15 years) when Rav Dessler died. That would imply he learnt for much longer with Rav Dessler. Do you have any information to the contrary, or are you just making this stuff up?
 
> Now let's be honest. How many people out there were really tied specifically to R' Slifkin's ideas? Very few I'm sure. Everyone was upset about the possibility of banning any approach which was not completely literal. This turns out not to be a problem. I would like to determine if R' Shapiro and R' Shternbuch would agree with R' Feldman on this.

Good luck with that! However, if you do succeed in getting a non literal approach validated, you have my respect.
 
> That is not to say that we cannot seriously deal with these questions, but that we start with the basics and later deal with the kashyos.

Silly point. Slifkin's book wasn't entitled 'A beginners book on Judaism', nor was it ever marketed as such. It was an advanced book for dealing with detailed issues. And kiruv experience has shown that many BT's have these issues at the onset.
 
> But the main idea is that a Rabbi came out with some specific ideas which the greatest scholars of today deemed inauthentic...not all that big of a deal.

You are correct ... if that was actually a factual account of what happened. Shame that was entirely NOT what happened ! They screamed kefirah. They didn't just say, hey these views are not too authentic, we prefer the Leshem's take. Talk about revisionist apologetics.
 
>Silly point. Slifkin's book wasn't entitled 'A beginners book on Judaism', nor was it ever marketed as such.

But that was precisely the problem. When you publsh a book, you can't control who reads it.
 
> They screamed kefirah.

They didn't scream anything. It seems you were doing most of the screaming.
 
Boruch,

The facts are these:

1. The 'gedolim', led by R. Elyashiv, signed a PUBLIC DECLARATION LABELING R. Slifkin and his books KEFIRAH.

2. They did so without due process.

3. Many did so without taking into account the Rishonim and Achronim R. Slifkin was basing himself on.

4. Rabbi Feldman blames the large fallout over the ban on R. Slifkin, even though the GEDOLIM's BAN AND ITS LACK OF DUE PROCESS AND MENTCHLEKEIT IS WHAT CAUSED THAT FALLOUT.

5. Rabbi Feldman's position has changed from his original one supporting R. Slifkin's right to publish, YET HE DOES NOT EXPLAIN THAT CHANGE OR EVEN ADMIT IT in his letter. He acts as if he has ALWAYS BEEN OPPOSED TO RABBI SLIFKIN. This is simply FALSE.

6. As for Moshe Shapiro, his letter on this issue attacking R. Slifkin was laughable – so much so that his OWN STUDENTS TRIED TO MODERATE THE DAMAGE by modifying the letter.

7. The 'gedolim' have mandated that we believe in a world that is less than 6000 years old. If we do not, we're KOFRIM.
 
Shmarya-

Very little of what you say is true.

1. I acknowledged this and wondered myself as to the contradiction.

2. This is not required nor has it ever been.

3. From where would you get that silly idea?

4. While I do wonder why the ban was carried out in the way it was (which I mentioned), it was the resistence to the psak which stirred up the controversy. I do think, though, that better communication from the gedolim would have mitigated this, as I've said.

5. There was no change. R' Feldman never made any statements that I know of that were in agreement with R' Slifkin's approach. He simply reported what he learned from his meeting with R' Elyashiv. That report was consistent with his article.

6. This is not relevant to this posting. The only reference to R' Shapiro was to mention that R' Carmell is not the definitve interpreter of R' Dessler.

7. There is no truth to this whatsoever.
 
>4. While I do wonder why the ban was >carried out in the way it was (which I >mentioned), it was the resistence to the >psak which stirred up the controversy. I >do think, though, that better >communication from the gedolim would have >mitigated this, as I've said.

While I think much of what you say has merit, and find much of shmarya and godol's tone distasteful, I think you are way off with this point.

It's quite disingenuous to say that those who asked questions about the psak are responsible for the controversy. The kol koreh was posted in prominent places with large bold letters and exclamation points, and contained hyperbolic language but few specifics. Compare this to ANY tshuvah in Igros Moshe. By design, this kol koreh created more questions than answers, and controversy was its inevitable outcome.
 
>It's quite disingenuous to say that those who asked questions about the psak are responsible for the controversy.

Those who ask questions are not responsible. Those who decide to wage a public campaign against the gedolim are. I do understand how Rabbi Slifkin must feel and would probably feel tempted to act similarly. However, it is certainly the wrong way to behave. For an example of how a true Yirei shomayim responds to this, even when he believes he is 100% correct, take a look at Rabbi Nosson Kaminetzky.
 
>this kol koreh created more questions than answers

Certainly true, as I have said. I am encouraged that clarifications are beginning to surface.
 
I can't believe we're still on this. Didn't we, as a civilization learn anything at all from Copernicus and Galileo? Forgive me for sounding arrogant- I'm trying not to, trust me, but science has made many undisputable gains since the days of the Rishonim. By continuing to make up all kinds of reasons to explain away that which is obvious is the ultimate chillul hashem. How dare anyone appoint themselves the ultimate arbitor of knowledge- limiting information to a group of people too ignorant of the outside world to think for themselves. Shame.
 
> Those who ask questions are not responsible. Those who decide to wage a public campaign against the gedolim are. I do understand how Rabbi Slifkin must feel and would probably feel tempted to act similarly. However, it is certainly the wrong way to behave. For an example of how a true Yirei shomayim responds to this, even when he believes he is 100% correct, take a look at Rabbi Nosson Kaminetzky.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but R' Nosson Kaminetzky was approached privately and respectfully, not confronted with an attack on his legitimacy. Also, he has begun to speak out. Have you listened to this yet:
http://www.yutorah.org/showShiur.cfm?shiurID=710353
 
I have listened to it. And it speaks volumes about the difference between the two men.
 
>How dare anyone appoint themselves the ultimate arbitor of knowledge

How dare anyone appoint themselves the arbitor of Torah? Ummm, I believe that would be Hashem Himself.
 
Precisely. Hashem is the only one. As far as I can see, Rabbi Feldman is trying to disguise a lack of scientific knowledge by throwing out a smokescreen. The letter is a rant. Its intent is to shut down scientific inquisitiveness. There is nothing positive that will come of it. Rabbi Feldman should stick to what he's good at and keep his scientific ignorance to himself.
 
I happen to know personally that R' Feldman's knowledge of science is quite extensive. Ask any of the numerous Hopkins students that have held long discussions with him in these matters. There is a well-known story of a PhD who came to the yeshiva and met for many hours with him. Afterwards, the man came out with a shocked look on his face. He was asked what had happened. The man responded that they just talked science the whole time and that R' Feldman knew more than he did. "You've never met anyone who knew more science than you before?" they asked. "Of course I have," he answered. "But none of them learned it all in the bathroom."
 
Then perhaps his letter is meant to confuse us into thinking he's ignorant. He states, for example, that we look into the sky and see stars that are a billion light years away. Carl Sagan wouldn't say that; most stars we can see are under 100 light years away. He also states that the "discovery of the DNA molecule" has rendered the likelihood of evolution statistically impossible. Huh???? The ever-changing characteristics of virus like the ones that cause AIDS and the common cold are testament to the fact that evolution happens- all the time. We just don't always see the changes with our eyeballs. C'mon, stop relying on the hand-feeding that you're getting and dare to think on your own. Those may be great anecdotes, but either A) they were intended to show respect to Rabbi Feldman or B) they're not true.
 
I forgot to mention my favorite part of this insanity- the idea that medicinal cures of the sages don't work now because things have changed. Riiiight. Too bad you don't have any handy anecdotes about Rabbi Feldman knowing more about medicine than a physician who came to talk with him. Or do you?
 
>most stars we can see are under 100 light years away.

That in no way undermines his point. But if it makes you feel better to be pedantic...
 
>The ever-changing characteristics of virus like the ones that cause AIDS and the common cold are testament to the fact that evolution happens- all the time.

Who is disputing this? R' Feldman is referring to the origin of life, not microevolution.
 
>the idea that medicinal cures of the sages don't work now because things have changed.

This is not R' Feldman, it is the opinion of the majority of Rishonim and Acharonim. The subject of whether one is permitted to hold like the minority will, as I have said, be dealt with in the future.
 
I have posted a point by point rebuttal (in a respectful way) of R' Feldman's points about science and torah here Summary: Chazal and Mistakes in Science

You have not addressed any of these points.
 
"I do understand how Rabbi Slifkin must feel and would probably feel tempted to act similarly. However, it is certainly the wrong way to behave."
Boruch, it's funny that you should say that, because guess what? Two of the Gedolim authorized him to put up his website. Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky... and RAV AHARON FELDMAN. It's true, I have had this confirmed by extremely reliable sources.
 
On the original letters, Rav Shiner cursed anyone who would believe that the universe is millions of years old. He clearly was not distinguising between Rabbi Slifkin's/ Rav Dessler's approach and that of the Leshem. According to the Leshem, each of the "hours" was much longer than regular hours, and therefore the six "days" were much longer than regular days. Afra lepumah, as Rav Shiner would say! Rav Feldman is not explaining the other gedolim - he is distorting them in order to make them more palatable to a wider audience.
 
> For an example of how a true Yirei shomayim responds to this, even when he believes he is 100% correct, take a look at Rabbi Nosson Kaminetzky.

Oh Boruch, you are such a doofus. So Kaminetzky is a 'true yorei shamayim' and Slifkin is not? Amazing that you are able to tell. Anyways, Kamkinetzky is much older and more choshuv. Slifkin is a regular kollel guy in his 20's. How would you react? Are you a true yorei shamayim? And your basic premise is flawed anyways. What does yirash shamayaim have to do with it? I could equally well argue that the banners lacked yiras shamayim, slandering Slifkin and by extension Kamkinetzky around the world with no due process.
 
>Two of the Gedolim authorized him to put up his website. Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky... and RAV AHARON FELDMAN.

I highly doubt the truth of this statement. I will have to investigate.

>Rav Shiner cursed anyone who would believe that the universe is millions of years old.

It does appear that this is Rav Shiner's belief. However, Rav Shiner is only one person and not the greatest of the gedolim. I realize that I have not provided any hard evidence that R' Feldman's view is shared by others. I hope to do that in the future.

>Kamkinetzky is much older and more choshuv.

True. So you want to say that R' Slifkin acted incorrectly because of his age or experience instead of a lack of y"s? Ok. I'll accept that.
 
>You have not addressed any of these points.

True. My post spoke mainly to the cosmology issue and not to the issue of the fallibility of Chazal. I will address that shortly, IY"H. I am unclear about several points in the article and would like clarification before I write about it.
 
> True. So you want to say that R' Slifkin acted incorrectly because of his age or experience instead of a lack of y"s? Ok. I'll accept that.
# posted by Boruch : 1:26 PM

Actually I would say acted differently. And better. Kaminetzky and Reinmen just rolled over. Slifkin did not, but defended himself. Good for him.
 
So then, being "older and more choshuv" causes you to act less properly? You're making no sense.
 
> So then, being "older and more choshuv" causes you to act less properly? You're making no sense.

On the contrary dear lockshen, its the way of the world. Senior people in respected positions often take the cowardly way out, because they are too entrenched in the status quo, and have more to lose. Whereas the young punks are more courageous and stand up for what's right.
 
You are right and you are wrong. Youth has the passion and the chutzpah to revolutionize the world. However, they haven’t the wisdom and refinement to be sure their revolution is well founded.

See the Chidushei Harim on Bava Metzia 44a, "Hakesef koneh es hazohov" for a beautiful explanation of this idea.

Of course, he was a chasid, so obviously anything he said was hocus pocus, right?
 
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